5.21.1.3. Stack Overflow mods refuse to clarify if anti-CCP imagery is allowed or not (2021)
This one again highlights the hypocrisy of many people in the West: we decide who is good and who is evil. The CCP is now evil, so you can criticize it, even if it shocks Chinese people. Ah, Nazism shocks us, even though it is an event from the past, so that you can’t do. You can only shock the Chinese people, not us.
Or: we like human rights. But not potentially disturbing someone at work even slightly is more important.
Opened a meta thread for this at: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/366163/can-i-use-images-such-as-from-tiananmen-square-protests-to-criticise-the-chinese (archive) where the top answer was:
We refuse to make a public decision.
In response, Ciro wrote the following essay on his profile page: stack-exchange-lost-freedom-of-speech.md.
The following quote from Ron Maimon comes to mind:
Unfortunately, when you’re in a minority, the only way to correct the consensus view is to just shout it, and repeat it, until people go and look and check for themselves. The reason is that it creates an adversarial atmosphere where the people have to pick sides, and they don’t like to pick sides, they would rather have everyone be happy. So when you have to pick sides, what do you do? You either butt out, you just leave it alone, you run away. Or you sit and review the evidence until you know which side to pick.
Notable people who went against in the comments:
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/295232/glorfindel from the Netherlands commented "As the Dutch police say "if you’re asking for attention, you get attention".". No attempt to address the question at all. Just a direct "I’m right, you’re wrong, and I’m glad you were punished".
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/282094/rob argues for "anything that raises enough flags should be taken down",
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/353058/holyblackcat "The mods and/or SE staff might not have clear guidelines in place yet, and I bet the last thing they want to do now is to figure out such guidelines to answer your question. If you have to ask, then I would refrain from adding any of that to your profile. Let’s keep excessive politics out of SO."
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/361484/luuklag "Nobody limits your free speech, we don’t withhold you from going out on the street and yell whatever you want. Should SE allow everything on its platform, no. That is the same as you don’t allow everything in your own house." What is it with the Netherlands? They were invaded by Hitler, and now they don’t want to support human rights?
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/135565/journeyman-geek again from Stack Overflow forbids criticizing the character of genocidal political leaders like Xi Jinping
Close voters and reopen voters can be seen publicly at https://web.archive.org/web/20210609071812/https://meta.stackexchange.com/posts/366163/revisions
First close voters:
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210506210343/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/286501/pierre-vriens presumably from Belgium
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210609000247/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/798831/ollie again from Stack Overflow forbids criticizing the character of genocidal political leaders like Xi Jinping
-
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210507002405/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/154443/rory-alsop Rory Alsop from Scotland. A LinkedIn with matching name and location: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorya/ states:
I have spent most of the last 20 years not just improving technical security in large and small organisations, but improving security and risk behaviours, awareness and culture in communities."
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210609000250/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/622284/spevacus "I participate in Charcoal, a user-run group that fights spam and rude/abusive content across the network. Do you hate spam? Drop by Charcoal HQ and help us catch and destroy it!". Interesting! https://github.com/Charcoal-SE/SmokeDetector
First reopen voters:
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/185080/eliah-kagan Eliah Kagan, this is an awesome Ask Ubuntu dude from New York
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/377214/sonic-the-anonymous-hedgehog
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/707129/xnero presumably from USA based on https://travel.stackexchange.com/users/105447/xnero
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/384528/forest-distrusts-stackexchange
The interesting thing is that none of them had the courage to actually say "forbid Tiananmen", "forbid Falun Gong". But they all said "forbid not suitable for work". But they won’t clarify if "not suitable for work" includes "not suitable for work in China".
On 2021-05-29 Ciro Santilli (三西猴, anti-CCP fanatic, 反中共狂热, stupid cunt, 傻屄, CIA agent, CIA特工, 肏你妈的) added almost all images from this page to his Stack Overflow account as shown at: https://archive.ph/nZLgI
On 2021-05-29 Ciro Santilli (三西猴, anti-CCP fanatic, 反中共狂热, stupid cunt, 傻屄, CIA agent, CIA特工, 肏你妈的) was suspended from Meta Stack Exchange for 7 days as shown at https://web.archive.org/web/20210529081019/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/200117/ciro-santilli%e6%96%b0%e7%96%86%e6%a3%89%e8%8a%b1trump-ban-bad received the following message from moderators:
Hello,
We’re writing in reference to your Meta Stack Exchange account:
We note that you were previously contacted for part of your profile being offensive. It has been brought to our attention that a significant part of your profile is filled with shock pictures, nazi imagery and similar images.
We’d note that people do use this site at work, and while users have some freedom over the content of their profile, there are fairly obvious lines that shouldn’t be crossed.
We do not recommend that you restore the content we removed - specifically the images without checking back with us.
We have temporarily suspended your account; you may return after 7 days.
Regards,
Meta Stack Exchange Moderation Team
As can be publicly seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20210506210320/https://stackexchange.com/about/moderators the list of moderators of that website at the time was:
-
ChrisF from the United Kingdom
-
Journeyman Geek who previously also showed up at: Stack Overflow forbids criticizing the character of genocidal political leaders like Xi Jinping
-
Tinkeringbell from the Netherlands
Ciro replied:
Hello,
Could you clarify if the following types of images are OK or not:
-
people imprisoned in Xinjiang concentration camps
-
Tiananmen square protests
-
making fun of Xi Jinping
-
Falun Gong persecution
supposing that they show no explicit gore or violence?
All the above are considered highly shocking to many Chinese people, due in part to their strict censorship rules, and not suitable for the workplace in China.
I have been using such images for many years to criticize what I believe are terrible events in China, and the decision so far has been that I was allowed to use them.
The intent of the Nazi images is clearly to compare both regimes to criticize the Chinese Government, which I believe is following the same path as the Nazis (e.g. Concentration Camps in Xinjiang, no freedom of speech, etc.), to help prevent such abuses from happening again in the future.
I just want to clearly understand the rationale of of why anti-CCP images are OK, but anti-Nazi ones aren’t, so I can follow your rules correctly and save everyone’s time in the future by correctly deciding which images are OK or not.
Cheers.
On their next reply, they tried to dodge a directly reply, but suggested that anti-CCP imagery is forbidden:
Could you clarify if the following types of images are OK or not:
Its not the 'topic' but rather the content.
All the above are considered highly shocking to many Chinese people, due in part to their strict censorship rules, and not suitable for the workplace in China.
Well if your intent is to shock - don’t. These are your words, not ours - and hopefully reflects a better understanding of what’s not acceptable.
I just want to clearly understand the rationale of of why anti-CCP images are OK, but anti-Nazi ones aren’t, so I can follow your rules correctly and save everyone’s time in the future by correctly deciding which images are OK or not.
We never said that. We gave specific examples of objectionable content. If you realise something isn’t suitable - that it is something shocking, and not suitable for the workplace, as you seem to realise, it shouldn’t be on your profile.
In short, we believe you have a very clear idea, from your own response, of what’s not acceptable, and we hope you exercise better judgement in this regard in future.
Ciro’s Reply:
We never said that. We gave specific examples of objectionable content. If you realise something isn’t suitable - that it is something shocking, and not suitable for the workplace, as you seem to realise, it shouldn’t be on your profile.
My intent is to convey extremely important information, not to shock.
However, in dictatorships like China, extremely important information is forbidden for unfair reasons, and therefore shocking.
We never said that. We gave specific examples of objectionable content. If you realise something isn’t suitable - that it is something shocking, and not suitable for the workplace, as you seem to realise, it shouldn’t be on your profile.
You forbade any Nazi imagery clearly, including to criticize the Nazis, so that is clear and I will never again add Nazi imagery.
All anti-CCP content is extremely shocking to many Chinese people (but not others). And it is not suitable for the workplace for anyone there, that is unquestionable.
Therefore, from your reply, I understand that anti-CCP content is not allowed because it is not suitable for the workplace in China, as it is shocking.
Is this understand correct? Can you please confirm very clearly and directly: do you forbid all anti-CCP imagery or not? And if it is just a partial ban, what is allowed and what is not more precisely?
My understanding from top answers at: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/349131/users-political-display-name-triggering-government-action-against-users-who-vie is that such criticism of the CCP is allowed on the website, even though it is clearly not suitable for the workplace in China.
Sorry to ask this further, but I need a clearer guideline so I can follow it.
This one again highlights the hypocrisy of many people in the West: we decide who is good and who is evil. The CCP is now evil, so you can criticize it, even if it shocks Chinese people. Ah, Nazism shocks us, even though it is an event from the past, so that you can’t do. You can only shock the Chinese people, not us.
Or: we like human rights. But not potentially disturbing someone at work even slightly is more important.
Opened a meta thread for this at: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/366163/can-i-use-images-such-as-from-tiananmen-square-protests-to-criticise-the-chinese (archive) where the top answer was:
We refuse to make a public decision.
In response, Ciro wrote the following essay on his profile page: stack-exchange-lost-freedom-of-speech.md.
The following quote from Ron Maimon comes to mind:
Unfortunately, when you’re in a minority, the only way to correct the consensus view is to just shout it, and repeat it, until people go and look and check for themselves. The reason is that it creates an adversarial atmosphere where the people have to pick sides, and they don’t like to pick sides, they would rather have everyone be happy. So when you have to pick sides, what do you do? You either butt out, you just leave it alone, you run away. Or you sit and review the evidence until you know which side to pick.
Notable people who went against in the comments:
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/295232/glorfindel from the Netherlands commented "As the Dutch police say "if you’re asking for attention, you get attention".". No attempt to address the question at all. Just a direct "I’m right, you’re wrong, and I’m glad you were punished".
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/282094/rob argues for "anything that raises enough flags should be taken down",
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/353058/holyblackcat "The mods and/or SE staff might not have clear guidelines in place yet, and I bet the last thing they want to do now is to figure out such guidelines to answer your question. If you have to ask, then I would refrain from adding any of that to your profile. Let’s keep excessive politics out of SO."
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/361484/luuklag "Nobody limits your free speech, we don’t withhold you from going out on the street and yell whatever you want. Should SE allow everything on its platform, no. That is the same as you don’t allow everything in your own house." What is it with the Netherlands? They were invaded by Hitler, and now they don’t want to support human rights?
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/135565/journeyman-geek again from Stack Overflow forbids criticizing the character of genocidal political leaders like Xi Jinping
Close voters and reopen voters can be seen publicly at https://web.archive.org/web/20210609071812/https://meta.stackexchange.com/posts/366163/revisions
First close voters:
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210506210343/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/286501/pierre-vriens presumably from Belgium
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210609000247/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/798831/ollie again from Stack Overflow forbids criticizing the character of genocidal political leaders like Xi Jinping
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210507002405/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/154443/rory-alsop Rory Alsop from Scotland. A LinkedIn with matching name and location: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorya/ states:
I have spent most of the last 20 years not just improving technical security in large and small organisations, but improving security and risk behaviours, awareness and culture in communities."
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20210609000250/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/622284/spevacus "I participate in Charcoal, a user-run group that fights spam and rude/abusive content across the network. Do you hate spam? Drop by Charcoal HQ and help us catch and destroy it!". Interesting! https://github.com/Charcoal-SE/SmokeDetector
First reopen voters:
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/185080/eliah-kagan Eliah Kagan, this is an awesome Ask Ubuntu dude from New York
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/377214/sonic-the-anonymous-hedgehog
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/707129/xnero presumably from USA based on https://travel.stackexchange.com/users/105447/xnero
-
https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/384528/forest-distrusts-stackexchange
The interesting thing is that none of them had the courage to actually say "forbid Tiananmen", "forbid Falun Gong". But they all said "forbid not suitable for work". But they won’t clarify if "not suitable for work" includes "not suitable for work in China".
On 2021-05-29 Ciro Santilli (三西猴, anti-CCP fanatic, 反中共狂热, stupid cunt, 傻屄, CIA agent, CIA特工, 肏你妈的) added almost all images from this page to his Stack Overflow account as shown at: https://archive.ph/nZLgI
On 2021-05-29 Ciro Santilli (三西猴, anti-CCP fanatic, 反中共狂热, stupid cunt, 傻屄, CIA agent, CIA特工, 肏你妈的) was suspended from Meta Stack Exchange for 7 days as shown at https://web.archive.org/web/20210529081019/https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/200117/ciro-santilli%e6%96%b0%e7%96%86%e6%a3%89%e8%8a%b1trump-ban-bad received the following message from moderators:
Hello,
We’re writing in reference to your Meta Stack Exchange account:
We note that you were previously contacted for part of your profile being offensive. It has been brought to our attention that a significant part of your profile is filled with shock pictures, nazi imagery and similar images.
We’d note that people do use this site at work, and while users have some freedom over the content of their profile, there are fairly obvious lines that shouldn’t be crossed.
We do not recommend that you restore the content we removed - specifically the images without checking back with us.
We have temporarily suspended your account; you may return after 7 days.
Regards, Meta Stack Exchange Moderation Team
As can be publicly seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20210506210320/https://stackexchange.com/about/moderators the list of moderators of that website at the time was:
-
ChrisF from the United Kingdom
-
Journeyman Geek who previously also showed up at: Stack Overflow forbids criticizing the character of genocidal political leaders like Xi Jinping
-
Tinkeringbell from the Netherlands
Ciro replied:
Hello,
Could you clarify if the following types of images are OK or not:
people imprisoned in Xinjiang concentration camps
Tiananmen square protests
making fun of Xi Jinping
Falun Gong persecution
supposing that they show no explicit gore or violence?
All the above are considered highly shocking to many Chinese people, due in part to their strict censorship rules, and not suitable for the workplace in China.
I have been using such images for many years to criticize what I believe are terrible events in China, and the decision so far has been that I was allowed to use them.
The intent of the Nazi images is clearly to compare both regimes to criticize the Chinese Government, which I believe is following the same path as the Nazis (e.g. Concentration Camps in Xinjiang, no freedom of speech, etc.), to help prevent such abuses from happening again in the future.
I just want to clearly understand the rationale of of why anti-CCP images are OK, but anti-Nazi ones aren’t, so I can follow your rules correctly and save everyone’s time in the future by correctly deciding which images are OK or not.
Cheers.
On their next reply, they tried to dodge a directly reply, but suggested that anti-CCP imagery is forbidden:
Could you clarify if the following types of images are OK or not:
Its not the 'topic' but rather the content.
All the above are considered highly shocking to many Chinese people, due in part to their strict censorship rules, and not suitable for the workplace in China.
Well if your intent is to shock - don’t. These are your words, not ours - and hopefully reflects a better understanding of what’s not acceptable.
I just want to clearly understand the rationale of of why anti-CCP images are OK, but anti-Nazi ones aren’t, so I can follow your rules correctly and save everyone’s time in the future by correctly deciding which images are OK or not.
We never said that. We gave specific examples of objectionable content. If you realise something isn’t suitable - that it is something shocking, and not suitable for the workplace, as you seem to realise, it shouldn’t be on your profile.
In short, we believe you have a very clear idea, from your own response, of what’s not acceptable, and we hope you exercise better judgement in this regard in future.
Ciro’s Reply:
We never said that. We gave specific examples of objectionable content. If you realise something isn’t suitable - that it is something shocking, and not suitable for the workplace, as you seem to realise, it shouldn’t be on your profile.
My intent is to convey extremely important information, not to shock.
However, in dictatorships like China, extremely important information is forbidden for unfair reasons, and therefore shocking.
We never said that. We gave specific examples of objectionable content. If you realise something isn’t suitable - that it is something shocking, and not suitable for the workplace, as you seem to realise, it shouldn’t be on your profile.
You forbade any Nazi imagery clearly, including to criticize the Nazis, so that is clear and I will never again add Nazi imagery.
All anti-CCP content is extremely shocking to many Chinese people (but not others). And it is not suitable for the workplace for anyone there, that is unquestionable.
Therefore, from your reply, I understand that anti-CCP content is not allowed because it is not suitable for the workplace in China, as it is shocking.
Is this understand correct? Can you please confirm very clearly and directly: do you forbid all anti-CCP imagery or not? And if it is just a partial ban, what is allowed and what is not more precisely?
My understanding from top answers at: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/349131/users-political-display-name-triggering-government-action-against-users-who-vie is that such criticism of the CCP is allowed on the website, even though it is clearly not suitable for the workplace in China.
Sorry to ask this further, but I need a clearer guideline so I can follow it.